Seriously buddy? You’re coming here to bash a show? We’re not talking about Animes here. “Avatar look stupid” Then it better be one of the best shows in the world ’cause that’s a tall order.

“It’s also inspired by quite a lot of asian history and mythology”

lmaof!

That’s like combining mexico, canada, and the united states into one culture! Asia is quite a large continent with many visually different cultures.. Japan is different from vietnam.. Korea is different from china.. etc

the fact that this show combines all those different cultures in one hodgepodge is just as ridiculous as having a guy with a french accent star in a role about german nazis…

In my opinion, this is one of the worst looking shows I’ve seen in awhile! It looks a lot worse because of it’s pretentious designs and watered-down look! Anime inspired? This is as bad as princess and the frog being inspired by Lady and the Tramp!

Can no one see the difference between any scene directed by norio matsumoto and the best scene in avatar? It’s really hard to imagine that nobody can notice that the…

1. animation quality
2. effects
3. camera
4. rhythm of cutting
5. appeal in design
6. level of draftsmanship
7. entertainment value

is better?

It would have to be taste, because that guy is getting himself all pissed off over an animated TV show, and it’s one that doesn’t look bad either.

Who cares if it’s not real anime? Maybe some people don’t like so-called “Real” anime. So far, the anime I’ve seen has had beautiful artwork and animation, but the stories and plotlines were absolute shit. The creators of the Avatar series, In my opinion have excellently combined well-told and thought out stories, relatively interesting characters(Zuko’s growth throughout the 3 seasons from villain, anti-hero, to full blown hero, is one of the best story arcs in a children’s animated show)with well-done animation(for television). Personally, I believe the original “Avatar:The Last Airbender” series to be ONLY good and worthwhile show Nickelodeon has put out in the last decade, bar none. It deserves all of the awards and accolades it has gotten(including the Emmys and the Peabody award)

Technically, Future Boy Conan was produced by Nippon Animation, not Ghibli, but it had several future key staffers on that show.

Kihyun Ryu:

worked on.. Dante’s Inferno.. The Boondocks.. Recess.. Hercules and Xena

I pretty much hate all of those shows.. He was also a character designer for Boondocks and Dante’s Inferno.. give me a break!!

Norio Matsumoto

worked on..

Blood the last vampire.. Memories.. Sword of the Stranger.. Naruto.. Birdy.. Evangelion.. Escaflowne.. etc

pwned!!

no one on avatar is on the level of him or any of these guys right here:

http://www.pelleas.net/animators/

This guy Kihyun Ryu basically copies frames off FLCL to study from, which were animated and directed by these guys:

http://www.pelleas.net/animators/

I’ve been to his blog and seen some of his scenes, and he is pretty solid for what he has to do for the show, but its like comparing Milt Kahl’s Tigger to the back to video Tigger animation of the 90s. It’s not anime-inspired, it will always be a weak imitation of the real thing. He is definately not on the same level as those animators I listed looking at his pencil tests~

Actually, the whole show avatar is basically ripping off from FLCL anyway! Ditto to the Boondocks as well! It’s not inspired when you pretty much see a weak imitation of the eyes, noses, mouth shapes, of FLCL in Avatar!! For me, when a show starts to use the exact same character design symbols of FLCL in Avatar, it crosses the line from being inspired to imitating it~

The key animation, storyboards, inbetweening, backgrounds, direction, all have a sense of imitation of the work of norio and the group of highly skilled animators they have in japan.. but not as well done!

obviously we have different standards of what is good animation in tv!

again.. let me make this super clear:

this is NOT anime “inspired”

this is a weak IMITATION of anime

when a studio has :

1. a style guide that rips off FLCL and other anime camera angles, facial expressions, and poses

2. kihyun ryu copy still frames from FLCL

.. it is not “inspiration”.. it is ripping it off!!

To me, being inspired by something is hanging it up on my wall so I can look at it while I do my own work, not literally spelling out all the cliche things about FLCL or other anime in a document and handing it out to the whole production crew so they can be “inspired” to put it in their storyboards..

where is the artistic integrity in that?

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I think we all need to stop with the romanticizing with Japan. I am alienated by today’s young blood in animation striving to emulate Japan and neglect every aspect of American Animation, when animations lineage can be traced back to America and everything we take for granted as well. Osamu Tezuka and Myiazaki made some honorable expansions in animation which I will not deny but even admitted that they owe much of their style to America.

These very pioneers that inspired Japan and created all of what we take for granted are buried in obscurity and esoteric even within our own industry. Its a bit disturbing when the kids entering Disney and Pixar (The Big Leagues) have little appreciation for their own native animation. The earlier generations Brad Bird, John Lassater appreciated the classics. This is why I think American Animation is suffering we don’t actually want to adhere to our own culture and think we will somehow improve our product by being like Japan.

What is even more pessimistic is that Japan has more of an appreciation for America than our own students. Myiazaki, Tezuka, and Monkey Punch are huge fans of Disney, Fleischer, Chuck Jones, Mad Magazine, and Ward Kimball. Ghilbi Studio Museum has honored several classics.

What has happened to appreciating and borrowing influence from ourselves?

James,

I just listed above some of my favorite tv shows not are not anime including early episodes of the Simpsons which were written by Brad Bird, Chuck Jones’ from A to ZZZ, and Bruce Timm’s Batman series..

Don’t worry, I have a huge appreciation of the many pioneers in animation in America as well…

But I think those same pioneers like Milt Kahl, Winsor Mccay, Max Fleischer, and Tex Avery would laugh their ass off on doing “master copies” off other animation studios and literally making a style guide that spells out cliche shots, expressions, and animation in FLCL.

One thing that Brad is constantly saying about the old guys that worked during the golden age of animation was that they constantly had to observe life and try to put that in their own work (because their was nothing to copy!)

… and this is one of the biggest critiques that Brad has on this generation of animation artists.. It’s not the fact they “have little appreciation for their own native country’s animation pioneers”.. but that they are so “inspired” by them that they forget to observe life around them.. like how Milt Kahl or Chuck Jones would pull from REAL life!

I could literally imagine if Milt were alive today, that he would laugh his ass off looking at that style guide that spelled out FLCL cliches!

I seriously wish that instead of the crew on Avatar try to copy what norio already mastered in Japan, to OBSERVE REAL LIFE!! .. because that’s what the old guys did…

and for those that feel those action sequences have a “realistic” quality to them.. we just see animation completely differently.. In my opinion, almost all the fight sequences lack real observation and believability.. again stop copying norio, and watch some real fight choreography! get some weight in your animation!!

Ironically, Disney’s whole copy life philosophy is derived from him originally wanting to become a live-action director. Which was his original reason for going to Los Angeles every studio shut him out. Animation was so under-established in 1923 when he founded Disney Brothers Studios that it was much easier to find steady employment there.

So really anime because it can be traced back to Disney is really an emulation of Live-Action like Disney was. Warner Bros. attitude was different the opposite actually but I can categorize it as this. Disney and Anime manage to capture the charm and natural beauty this world has to offer that the average individual neglects to notice. The world around us is a painting waiting to be viewed for all its qualities. Warner Bros. is more stylized as is Fleischer and UPA.

I see it all as subjective. The only fact steaming from all of our arguments is that its all subjective. But both have their own qualities.

again.. for those who clearly don’t understand what I’m gripping out…

I am NOT saying:

1. AVATAR shouldn’t be anime influenced

2, AVATAR is anime or not anime

3. Different cultural artforms shouldn’t influence each other

4. AVATAR needs to be more anime

5. The Japanese animation industry as a whole is better then America’s animation industry as a whole (clearly I was talking about individual animators in japan and did list american animators that are just as exceptional)

my main point is:

The production quality is weak and pretentious because…

A. Their “best” director does master copies off FLCL frame grabs
B. They have a style guide that spells out cliche’s in FLCL and asks the
story artist to be “inspired” to put it in their boards
C. The very best scenes in AVATAR give the impression of looking at
norio’s work too much instead of observing REAL LIFE (the source)

AVATAR may be nickelodean’s best animated series, but AVATAR and many other tv shows should take a lesson from the great animators from the past (both japanese, american, russian,..etc) who instead of copying other animation studios, they did their own homework and observed life, studied real action choreography, and were bold enough to be original

wasn’t it T.Hee that said, “think different, draw different”

In response to Daniel.

I don’t believe your criticisms are so justified because you seem rather oblivious or that you are turning a blind eye toward several

“my main point is: The production quality is weak and pretentious because…
A. Their “best” director does master copies off FLCL frame grabs”

Instead of forming an opinion on someone based off of one file (and a study, of all things), browse through the entirety of someone’s work before assuming that it is the ONLY thing they’ve ever drawn or studied from.
Taking Ryu for example, since you have been actively bringing him up, you could see from his blog that there are life drawings, animations, character model sheets, personal doodles and so on in a variety of styles. And this is just barely a glance at all the things he’s produced over the years (the blog was last updated in 2008.) http://blacksataguni.blogspot.com/

“B. They have a style guide that spells out cliche’s in FLCL and asks the
story artist to be “inspired” to put it in their boards”

Style guides and character sheets are a necessity during production, so your criticism of story artists having model sheets to work from is rather pointless. So instead, I’ll assume that your argument here is that the Avatar style seems derivative.

I’ll say it now, indeed you are right in that there is a heavy influence in the designs and animation. But that’s what styles are– It’s the offspring of multiple parent sources of inspiration; problem-solving plus your personal taste, which accumulates along the way based off of things you’ve seen and admired, and regurgitated with your own personal flair.

Styles evolve from function as well as aesthetics; Similar to the importance of tropes in storytelling, “cliches” in designs are often repeated because they Work and People Like Them. Likewise, for all our different opinions, we share the same set of alphabet and the same dictionary of words.

You may not personally admire the aesthetics of what you consider “watered down FLCL”, but it is pointless of you to dismiss the a body of work just because you’ve identified one of its sources of inspiration and thus deem it unoriginal. FLCL itself couldn’t have been designed the way it was if its artists weren’t inspired by artists before them.

As repeated to death over and over again in previous comments, Japanese anime was inspired from western animation, — so what’s wrong with things going full circle and being inspired by the Japanese and then back again? Inspiration and progress is not a one way relationship, and it’s not as if we are limited to only one source of inspiration at a time. Being accepting towards change, and incorporating influences from all over, is what evolution is.

I understand your concern that by copying from artists that copy from real life (aka the pure original source), that we are only getting watered down versions of something that is already watered down. But you are forgetting two things: one, that just because an artist studies the work of another artist, doesn’t mean that they aren’t also studying from real life. And second, that studying the way someone else has solved a set of problems means that we are capable of standing on each others shoulders rather than foolishly always trying to rebuild towers from ground up just for the sake of being “Original”.

“C. The very best scenes in AVATAR give the impression of looking at
norio’s work too much instead of observing REAL LIFE (the source)”

Please take the time to look up more information on the production before you take the time to criticize said production.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v2Jxl6v4hk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMbwBhl1x-Q and etc.

“Style guides and character sheets are a necessity during production, so your criticism of story artists having model sheets to work from is rather pointless. So instead, I’ll assume that your argument here is that the Avatar style seems derivative.”

Let me make this super clear for you. I am not complaining that the story artist use style guides or character sheets. It is the manner that the style guide was presented:

In this particular “style” guide, they used images from the actual shows (FLCL and others) and told the story artist to be “inspired” to put those same shots, expressions, and poses in their work.

In a normal television studio production, the style guide and character sheets are drawn from that particular show’s character designer and/or art director.

again, I am not complaining the fact that this show uses style guides or character sheets, I am complaining that they are using frames from other television shows in their style guide and are trying to break down another television show’s style in the most simplistic watered-down way to put it in AVATAR.

I think I stated this in another post, but I have looked at his blog and he is nothing special. Not only does he copy FLCL frames, but his character designs lack appeal and personality, the movement and spacing lacks weight and a lack of sensitivity, the poses lack rhythm, the performance lacks believability, the life drawings lack emphasis… etc… and most of all, it just looks like fan-art to me..

again, another personal subjective opinion, but if they studied all that real life choreography, why is it not present in the actual work? I’m sure I wouldn’t be able to convince you even if I broke down frame by frame why those scenes are NOT working.. especially since many of you feel that the difference between norio and ryu is just “different”

I agree that some of this is taste, but I would bet that most of those early pioneering animation artists like Chuck Jones, Milt Kahl, Art Babbit, Tex Avery, and many others would agree with me in my taste about AVATAR’s style and production quality!

Daniel, I don’t see where you are coming from by saying, “AVATAR will always be looking to find norio’s latest animation sequence and trying to imitate it.” From the fight scenes animated by Matsumoto and the one I posted from Avatar, they are nothing alike. Avatar isn’t trying to imitate Norio Matsumoto. If you don’t mind, could you post a fight scene from Avatar and one from Norio’s work and point out how they are similar? As others have noted, the animators use a real-life martial arts choreographer named Sifu Kisu to get video reference for each battle. If they need a little inspiration for the choreography they refer to classic martial arts movies — that’s live-action movies, not recent anime.

As for Kihyun Ryu, so what if he uses FLCL for inspiration? He still makes original animation and drawings for the show. The FLCL imitation actually goes up higher than him btw, the co-creators of the series Mike DiMartino and Bryan Konietzco are big FLCL fans and actually told the whole team that worked on the show (who were used to comedy American animation beforehand) to rent FLCL and watch it to get a feel for what they were trying to accomplish with Avatar. They didn’t copy anything for use in the show, they just used it for inspiration. Among other things. Miyazaki was a big influence too, as he is for many Japanese animators.

And, regardless of whatever source Avatar drew inspiration from, the point remains: it’s still great. It’s one of, if not the, best American animated action series of the last decade. It combines well-done action sequences with a well-written plot, a imaginative world (which uses elements from cultures all across Asia, not just Japan; even some Inuit and Aztec inspired cultures are present), dynamic, rounded characters, a hilarious sense of humor (which relies more on writing than the visual slapstick of most anime), phenomenal music, and just general high quality all around. While I’m sure there are some great Japanese anime that exceed Avatar (I personally am a fan of Fullmetal Alchemist/Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood), Avatar easily has a place alongside what are considered “good” anime.

Daniel I personally believe that your being a bit harsh on Avatar. Many animes have correlations that is one of the genres biggest flaws, despite the fact that they have beautiful color schemes, intricate narratives, and use Dramatic story devices quite frequently. They still suffer from barring a lot of similarities to other properties.

We could point out how a previously established anime had been imitated by FLCL, this continuous pattern would trace itself back to Disney and Fleischer. Artists pass down from generation to generation their will be correlations sure but they will still possess their own distinctive style.

Jason, what constitutes greatness is a matter of subjectiveness. Personally America has remained to long on the comedic treadmill but based on Disney and Fleischer’s Superman and Mr.Bug, and Chuck Jones later work we are perfectly capable of incorporating drama and higher culture.

I am a bit offended by OhG’s comment that we are and should be striving to get better by emulating Japan. Since when is most of the animation community saying that Japan is light years ahead? Without hard evidence but unadulterated subjectiveness. It amazes me how so many of today’s younger crop of animators are coming out of anime listserves and Deviant Art, entering Pixar and Disney without appreciation for classical animation. Ignorance like that is what is problematic in the industry these days, as the years go by we are staying less and less true to are roots and what made us such an institution.

Japan and America are apples and oranges metaphorically. Though why give up our orange for the apple. Their at the same level of quality but the orange is our culture that we shouldn’t abandon yet so many kids want to throw away this orange and eat the apple